Marriage is What Brings Us Together Today

JOANNE: Well, I mean, I think if what we’re talking about is, in one way or another, I don’t know if I want to call it a fair trade, but certainly a trade of sorts, in which two people come to a relationship and each brings something. If you go further back in time to the founding period, for example, there are women I think who bring a lot to marriages of influential husbands that I’m sure they came with their money attached, but more than that, they brought social skills, they brought the ability to actually be, in a sense, more effective politicians than their husbands. And I’m thinking particularly of Dolly Madison, and Louisa Katherine Adams, who is John Quincy Adam’s wife.

BRIAN: So you’re saying those guys were political stiffs and they needed a little help.

JOANNE: Yeah, pretty. Pretty much. They were not the most sort of vivaciously, wonderfully social human beings, and their wives were. And their wives sort of mastered that domain– and in the case of Dolly Madison– really kind of created a sense of place and purpose for the capitol and for the presidency.

BRIAN: And were people are aware of that, or did they like just attribute all those good things to the guy?

JOANNE: I think in the case of Dolly Madison, they were very aware. I mean, because some people called her, Queen Dolly, because she very clearly was– yeah, yeah. In the case of Louisa Katherine Adams, I don’t know if it was quite as blatantly obvious–

BRIAN: Which would make it all the more effective in a way.

JOANNE: Exactly, well exactly. And I think in a sense, they were more of a pair. I think that they were a politicking pair in a different kind of a way.

ED: You what’s really striking to me is, that sounds like a great precedent that turned out not to be one, because after them, I have a hard time thinking of any woman in the White House who exerted really much of a positive influence.

BRIAN: When we think of first ladies we think of first ladies who are kind of held up in scorn in a way.

ED: Yeah, or the woman who wished so badly to be of great help to her husband was Mary Todd Lincoln. And he married her in part, because he thought that she would be helpful politically. Not only does she come from a prominent family and not only does she have social skills that he lacked, but she was also ambitious in a way that he wasn’t always ambitious. But unfortunately, those things didn’t really work out in the cauldron of Civil War Washington. Well, people were not really impressed with her finery and with her insistence that, during wartime that she needed to have all those dresses. And this is kind of scandalous that she had to have dozens of pairs of gloves. That was a major scandal that people were just appalled that she was so pretentious in a time when so many people were suffering. And so she end up being a great political liability to Lincoln for exactly the opposite reason that he had hoped.

JOANNE: That sounds like it’s a wartime problem as opposed to a Mary Todd Lincoln–

ED: We’ll never know Joanne, that’s the only time that they served. But it very well could have been. It could have been that in a time of gaiety and prosperity, that that would have been just what this stiff Abraham Lincoln guy needed. So that reminds us, a lot of this is context. Unfortunately, apparently there’s decade after decade of context in which that doesn’t work called the Gilded Age.

At the very same time that these dollar princesses that Brian was talking about are flourishing, you don’t have women who are prominent in the White House, except for the somewhat icky instance of Frances Cleveland who marries in the White House when she’s 21 who had been the ward of Grover Cleveland, her new husband, throughout her life. And even though he’s 48 and she’s 21, she does have some of the skills you’re talking about Joanne that Dolly Madison had, she’s vivacious, she sort of makes the White House a place to be. But other than that, the 19th century is kind of a smoking crater when it comes to influential women in the White House.

BRIAN: Yeah, and I would say that, when you get to Lady Bird Johnson, she was the key to financing Lyndon Johnson’s early political career. She had come in to some wealth, certainly a lot more wealth than Lyndon Johnson. And her financing and her advice and partnership in Lyndon Johnson’s early political career before they had kids was really crucial to the success of both of them, perhaps that kind of pair initially.

JOANNE: So I mean, essentially, it feels to me that what we’ve been saying here is what we’re talking about a number of different things that women are bringing to these marriages and sometimes, it’s social skills and sometimes, it’s money and sometimes, it’s a political agenda, sometimes, there’s a partnership, sometimes, it really is men looking for a woman to give them whatever it is that they need for their political purposes. But I kind of feel like I want to put in a word for amorphousness and ambiguity, because the fact of the matter is, we’re talking about exchanges, but in at least some of these cases, there’s also sincere emotion involved too, right?

So we’re talking about something that’s practical, but that’s also tied up with emotion and, hopefully, in some cases, love. And that’s part of this too, that’s part of the mix.

BRIAN: We’re not allowed to discuss that on this show.

JOANNE: Oh, but I’m a woman, so I can say, love.

ED: Bingo. Well, I think that’s one of the things that made the Obama’s so effective is that their mutual devotion was so obvious, but so was her chops and so was his respect for her chops– proudly independent people who were also devoted to each other.

BRIAN: Professionals.

ED: Yeah, exactly. And it be that Meghan Markle and Prince Harry are sort of in the Obama mold, that they’re both coming into it with their own distinct personalities, their own distinct trajectories and credibility, but are devoted to a common purpose. The difference is, you don’t actually become royal in America, but you do become forever the former president and the former first lady.

That’s going to do it for us today, but you can keep the conversation going online. Let us know what you thought of the episode, or ask us your questions about history. You’ll find us at backstoryradio.org, or send an email to backstory@virginia.edu. We’re also on Facebook and Twitter @backstoryradio. Whatever you do, don’t be a stranger.

This episode of BackStory was produced by David Stenhouse, Nina Ernest, Emily [? Gaddick ?] and Ramona Martinez. Jamal Milner is our technical director, Diana Williams is our digital editor and Joey Thompson is our researcher. Additional help came from [? Angeli ?] [? Bishosh, ?] Sequoia Carrillo, Courtney [? Sponia, ?] Aaron [? Tealing, ?] Korean Thomas and Gabriel Hunter Chang. Our theme song was written by Nick Thorburn. Other music in this episode came from [? Catsa, ?] Podington Bear and [? Jazaar. ?]

Thanks as always to the Johns Hopkins Studios in Baltimore.

JOANNE: Backstory is produced at Virginia Humanities. Major support is provided by an anonymous donor, the National Endowment for the Humanities, the provost’s office at the University of Virginia, the Joseph and Robert Cornell Memorial Foundation and the Arthur Vining Davis Foundations. Additional support is provided by the Tomato Fund, cultivating fresh ideas in the arts, the humanities and the environment.

MALE SPEAKER: Brian Balogh is professor of history at the University of Virginia. Ed Ayers is professor of the humanities and President Emeritus at the University of Richmond. Joanne Freeman is professor of history and American Studies at Yale University. Nathan Connolly is the Herbert Baxter Adams associate professor of history at the Johns Hopkins University. BackStory was created by Andrew Windom for Virginia Humanities.