Towards An Inclusive Congress

JF: We’re going to wind up this show in the present day, with my conversation with Illinois Senator Tammy Duckworth.

JF: One of the most surprising and memorable segments that I did was an interview with Senator Tammy Duckworth. I was excited and honored to be interviewing her — in the U.S. Capitol itself — but in the course of our interview, I was moved by our discussion as well. A woman in a supposedly “male” field like myself, it was remarkable to hear her acknowledge the power of imposter syndrome, the frustration of having men repeat what she said in meetings without acknowledging her, and the joy of having enough women present to continue a conversation in a restroom during breaks. There was a kind of bonding there that I hadn’t expected. The fact that I shared so much with this incredibly accomplished woman was reassuring and frustrating at the same time. I think the power of that realization comes through in the interview.

JF: So here is this conversation, from the show “The Year of the Woman: A History of Women in Congress.”

[Music]

Joanne Freeman: Congress wasn’t built for someone like Tammy Duckworth. As a woman of color, a new mother, and a disabled veteran, Tammy Duckworth has had to make Congress work for her. I spoke to Senator Duckworth and started by asking her what it felt like to first enter the male-dominated space of Congress in 2013.

Tammy Duckworth: Well, it was really interesting in that we had Leader Pelosi, and so we were led by a woman, a very strong woman who had been Speaker. It was, I think, very fortunate to have that role model that you could look to someone who was very active in teaching new members, especially the women members, to speak up. One of the things she always said was when you sat around in a circle … Especially as a freshman, you’re afraid to say something because the imposter syndrome is very real. When I would go into the chambers, even though I’d served in combat, I’d often been the only woman in an all-male unit, I had this real strong sense of imposter syndrome like, “What am I doing here? There’s so and so. There’s Sam Farr,” who’s been a congressman for literally in the decades, and all of these people that I’d seen on TV.

Tammy Duckworth: It was very intimidating, but Leader Pelosi was one who she didn’t let your turn pass by without saying something, and then if you said something and then the next person … The conversation moved on, and two other people, and then somebody else, a man picked up what you had to say, she’d be sure to say, “Wait a minute, Tammy said that,” and direct it back.

Joanne Freeman: Wow.

Tammy Duckworth: She really left it on you to push yourself-

Joanne Freeman: But, she was back up, basically.

Tammy Duckworth: … but she was back up, which it was a good example to have.

Joanne Freeman: Wow, that’s powerful actually, and I would wish for that in a lot of moments in my life too.

Tammy Duckworth: Yeah.

Joanne Freeman: Now, I wonder then, thinking more recently, I know that you somewhat recently had a daughter.

Tammy Duckworth: Yes, my second one.

Joanne Freeman: How did you think about that knowing the rules that were in place at the time? What went through your mind as to how you might have to adjust, maybe changing things or hoping to change things to allow for you to bring your daughter on the floor? How did that progress?

Tammy Duckworth: I had my first daughter at 2014, so the second year of my first term in the House of Representatives. It was actually while I was on maternity leave with her that I decided to run for United States Senate.

Joanne Freeman: Wow.

Tammy Duckworth: I will say that with my second daughter, I was definitely much more of a rule-breaker. I should say, maybe I was more of a rule-follower my first term because there’s imposter syndrome, I’m new, and all of that. I actually had my first daughter at home and was out from Washington for three months, and took my maternity leave then, but I missed all those votes. Now, here we are in 2018, and I’m about to give birth to my daughter. I’m now in the Senate, and the difference in votes was two, so every vote counted. We couldn’t afford to have me out for three months.

Tammy Duckworth: If you go on maternity leave, the Senate rules say you are now allowed to vote, and you’re not allowed to introduce legislation. Whereas in the House, I was able to, but in the Senate, I couldn’t. I couldn’t officially take maternity leave, and I, in fact, had to decide to give birth in Washington, D.C. so I could be nearby for votes.

Joanne Freeman: Wow.

Tammy Duckworth: Knowing that, empowered me to say, “Well, dammit, then if these are the rules, then I’m bringing my baby when I come to vote.” In fact, when she was just 10-days-old, they needed my vote.

Joanne Freeman: Wow. So, you came with her …

Tammy Duckworth: So, I came with her, yeah.

Joanne Freeman: How did that feel?

Tammy Duckworth: It felt fabulous. Fantastic. It also felt long overdue. It was funny because I received support leading up to it that the fight to be able to bring her onto the floor from … There was definitely a lot of strange bedfellows. Certainly, the Democratic women were very supportive, but then I had some of the Republican men came forward. It was almost generational. Some of the younger members … Remember Marco Rubio, whom I don’t think I ever voted the same with him on 10% of our votes, came up to me on the floor and said, “Tammy, I hear you want to change the rules and bring your daughter onto the floor,” and I was steeling myself for what he was going to say. He goes, “I will support you. I’m backing you up, whatever you need. I wish I could have brought my children,” because his kids were young too. I was blown away.

Tammy Duckworth: Roy Blunt of Missouri, whom I campaigned against, came up to me and said, “Tammy, as soon as I’m the chairman of the Rules Committee, I will change the rule for you because I remember when I could bring my children on the floor when I was in the House and how great that was. I want that for here.”

Joanne Freeman: That’s so important to say, that as much as we’re sitting here talking about gender issues, that there’s a generational component in this too for sure.

Tammy Duckworth: Right, and yet, some of the members who were a little bit older had questions like, “Well, is she going to breastfeed on the floor?” Like that was some horrible thing, or that would be such a scandal. They asked what the dress code was going to be for the baby.

Joanne Freeman: No!

Tammy Duckworth: Yeah, yeah. Because there’s a Senate dress code. You have to wear blazers, and you have to wear closed-toe shoes and no hats. I said, “Well, she’s a baby so probably a beanie, and I’m not taking that off of her.”

Joanne Freeman: Oh, my gosh!

Tammy Duckworth: She’s probably be in a onesie. I guess I could put a blazer on her if I need to, and she’s too young for shoes, so socks.

Joanne Freeman: Wow!

Tammy Duckworth: Literally, it was the most inane questions. Why are you asking this?

Joanne Freeman: Rules.

Tammy Duckworth: Rules.

Joanne Freeman: Some people are just thinking rules. Right.

Tammy Duckworth: I did put a blazer on her that day.

Joanne Freeman: Oh, my God! I’m going to go online and find that just to see if there’s an image of that because that’s wonderful.

Joanne Freeman: I also want to say, as a woman who works in a largely male field, seeing you sitting here and talk about imposter syndrome, as you have a couple of times, on the one hand, is infuriating, and, on the other hand, is really empowering to hear you say that since I feel the same thing. I also don’t necessarily bring it up because I think, I don’t know, I guess I feel I want to have people not assume that I’m worried about that sort of stuff. But, you’re right. Actually, related to that, when you were saying that Speaker Pelosi was backup, are there ways in which you think as a woman legislator that your strategy is different in how you address or interact in Congress?

Tammy Duckworth: It’s a cliché, but I think it’s definitely consensus building, and really working a lot of those relationships. We are very fortunate in the Senate that we do have the women’s senators group, so we do support each other as much as possible, and try to back each other up across the aisle. You’ve seen there have been some images of Lisa Murkowski or Susan Collins who voted on some choice issues or some things like that, where it was Democratic women senators who stood next to them to provide them with support as they were making some really tough votes that they were really being harassed for by their male colleagues. Yeah.

Joanne Freeman: Does that feel different in the Senate then it did in the House on that account?

Tammy Duckworth: It does because there were many, many more women in the House. Again, we have a female leader. In the Senate, Chuck is great, but we just don’t have that type of leadership over in terms of … We have Patty Murray. She’s the first. She’s the first woman leader over here on the Senate side, so we certainly could use more representation.

Joanne Freeman: Now, looking in from the outside and seeing the large number of women that came in in this last election … I was on the outside cheering and thinking, “Yay!” But, what I’m really curious about is, did that offer a different sense of a we to you being on the inside? Did that awareness, above and beyond the fact that we need more representation from women, did that change the ethos for you in any way?

Tammy Duckworth: I just felt like we had more center of mass. I don’t get to go over to the House side very much, as we’re just over in the Senate side. So, the total number of female senators didn’t change. I will tell you that on the House side, I was over there, I don’t know, before the State of the Union or something, and there was a waiting line for the female stalls in the female bathroom. It was the first time that had happened. There’s so many of us now, we actually have to wait again.

Joanne Freeman: Oh, my gosh!

Tammy Duckworth: I was like, “Well, then you need to change it. Get some more stall over here.” But, it was nice. We’re all standing around talking to each other, and that was really nice. There’s a lot of shop talk going on as you’re just chatting with each other-

Joanne Freeman: That’s hilarious.

Tammy Duckworth: Yeah, it was a good feeling.

Joanne Freeman: I wonder also, given what we’ve been talking about here, in looking at the historic number of women right now who are running for president, what are your thoughts at this moment?

Tammy Duckworth: I’m so proud, and I’m so proud that there’s no questions of whether or not they’re qualified as there was with Geraldine Ferraro or for the women before her. I think Hillary Clinton and all the women who ran prior who showed that women are just equally qualified … What I really like is the fact that no one has questioned these women’s ability to do this job. Maybe it’s a reflection on who’s in the White House right now, but I don’t think people look at any one of the women that are running and think, “Oh, she’s not capable.”

Tammy Duckworth: It’s definitely more how to rack and stack the various people who are running in terms of almost more experience. Some of these women are seen as having more experience as many of the men who are running who are very young.

Joanne Freeman: I guess I’ll ask one last question, and it’s kind of a goofy question, but I’m going to ask it anyway. If you were bestowed with magical political powers and could do anything right now to make the space in Congress feel more inclusive, what might you do?

Tammy Duckworth: I would get more diversity in the staff at the highest levels because that’s not there. We’re trying very hard to do that. The staff are even, I think, in many ways less diverse than the membership, especially if you look at the House. It’s still a largely white, male workforce, and there are not very many female chiefs of staff. There’s not very many female legislative directors. These are people who are advising their representative or their senators on the bills to write, so if you have … Even though you could have a female senator, if her advisors are all white men, they’re not going to be as attuned to criminal justice reform issues, economic injustice issues, equal pay, and all of that.

Tammy Duckworth: I’ll give you an example of how it makes a big difference even though it’s not about the loss. My chief of staff, Kaitlin Fahey, has been with me from the time she walked on as an unpaid volunteer. My deputy chief of staff is a woman as well. They belong to the women’s chiefs group who get together in a bipartisan way and try to solve some of these issues, and agree to bring up some of these legislation, work together on the legislation, and nudge their bosses in the right direction. Also, Kaitlin is the one who’s been my right-hand person developing my own leave policies.

Tammy Duckworth: We have 12 weeks of paid family leave for birth of a child, adoption, fostering, also to take care of an ill family member. So, it’s open equally to men or women in my office, and this is something that Kaitlin helped me develop. Having a female chief was really important as part of that process. She and I were pregnant, and we gave birth within three months of each other.

Joanne Freeman: Oh, wow!

Tammy Duckworth: My deputy chief is pregnant now.

Joanne Freeman: On, my gosh!

Tammy Duckworth: That changes the ethos in the office because now the young men in my office sees it as perfectly okay for a woman to go have a baby, and take time off, and then come back to work. The senator did it, and the chief-

Joanne Freeman: It makes it pregnant [crosstalk 00:40:14] real-time.

Tammy Duckworth: And, it actually didn’t hurt anything. Everybody was just fine. Now, I’m waiting. I’m just praying that one of my male staff members actually has a child and takes the family leave and sets the example.

Joanne Freeman: Tammy Duckworth is the Junior Senator from Illinois.

JF: That’s going to do it for us today. Thanks for joining me in this look back to some of my favorite moments from BackStory.

I’d love to know what you thought about these segments. Or what some of your favourite BackStory moments have been.

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